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Special Ultra utilisateur
Merci pour ta réponse !
C'est un peu un "piège" puisque tu prends en exemple une pièce "atonale" (ou modale). Évidemment que l'approche modale convient (ça revient à ce qu'on disait sur le fait d'utiliser la bonne grille d'analyse)...
Ceci dit, ce n'est pas une analyse si tu ne fais que déduire des modes des notes (un logiciel pourrait le faire)... même si ici tu vises dans le mille avec une approche modale... voici par exemple une analyse (sur cette même pièce) dans le sens où je l'entends... où on commence par le plus important, soit donner le contexte général...
Firstly, this is non-fuctional harmony, so determining function is useless in a traditional sense.
(...) this is not tonal music, so talking about "G Major" and "modulating to X" may not be as informative as you'd like it to be.
It's not "in G Major" because it's not a tonal piece. It's post-tonal. It does have a key signature, but a key signature does not tell you the key, it tells you it might be one of two possible keys in tonal music, in this case Bm or DM (if it were tonal).
At best, given the final cadence, we could say it is D Dorian, and the key signature of two sharps (either by Satie or an Editor) was chosen to reflect a "key center" of D.
But obviously, the piece uses many chords throughout that shift through various modes.
This is a Modal, post-tonal piece.
Bars 1-16 are G Lydian.
Bar 17 begins a "ii-V-i" progression leading to E Dorian (the "parallel" to G Lydian).
Bar 21 begins a shift to D Dorian (F and C Naturals throughout).
So there are some "hints" at traditionalism here Nick ("parallel" treatment of modes, ii-V-i moves, the idea that if it began in D Ionian, it could move to the "relative" D Dorian which reflects the D Major to D minor mode change of many classical works, etc.)
>
> So for the blue circled bar, I thought it could be
> a Dmajor minor7th in G, a fifth of fourth, but
> then there's an E note there.
The chord is, from bottom to top:
D - D - G - B - E - B - C - D
It depends on how you want to approach this as to what it would be called.
It is a G6 chord (G-B-D-E) or Em7 (E-G-B-D) if you consider the C note in the melody to be a passing tone (which it often is in this position), over a D bass, so:
G6/D or Em7/D (or just Em/D for some)
If I were trying to point out a "more traditional" idea of a IV6/4 (D-G-B ) to I (D-F-A) idea to further liken these moves to tonal music, than I'd call it the G6/D. If I wanted my analysis to point out the "modal" nature, I'd pick the Em7/D as it sounds "more modal" as a ii-i type "cadence". Furthermore, if I were trying to point out the ambiguous nature this piece exudes, I'd offer both as possible interpretations.
If you are to consider the C a chord tone, then it could be CM7/D (or some would call CM9/D). I don't think it sounds very "C-ish" though, so this would be my least likely choice.
A secondary issue here is that Jazzers see m7 and M7 chords as implying a Dorian and Lydian source respectively, so using G6, Em7, or CM7 all imply some sort of F# and doesn't point out the D Dorian modality as well (so again, why G6 is the least offensive choice, and has a nice tie-in with traditionalism)
If I were looking at the entire structure, calling it "some type of D chord", it would be Dm13 - though again I don't know how informative that is because it's missing the F and A (and by the way, F natural is implied from measure 21, which you didn't include here).
The most informative analysis is what he's doing - using a drone D bass, with a D dorian melody above, and harmonies from D dorian. He's also using "triad forms" above that bass, such as Em, Am, and F to create Em7/D (Dm13), Am/D (Dm9) and F/D (Dm7).
One interesting thing to note is how the harmonies, taken from that D starting point, go from "more dense" to "less dense" - m13 to m9 to m7 - the "ebb and flow" or "shrink and grow" throughout the passage. However, if you consider the melody (depending on how you consider the melodic tones as chord tones or not) that can change the overall harmonic ideas.
>
> For the red circled section I'm just clueless how
> something in C major can be related to D Major,
That's because it's not in C major.
It contains the notes A B C D E F and G.
That *could be* C major, A minor, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian or B Locrian.
It's D Dorian (at that point).
> unless he's doing a circle of fifth motion or
> something?
It's possible in modal music to have 5th related movement, but this is not one of those instances, and it's not tonal music, so talking about "circle of 5ths" is again not going to be very informative.
>
> Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.
Hope that helps,
Steve
https://www.guitare-live.com/f(...).html
It sounds far more to me like the G chords are "I" and the D chords are "V".
When "G" sounds like "home", or the "tonic", or the "center", then the piece is "in G" - it's in G *something*.
Given a key signature of two sharps, and no chromatic alterations, that would make it G Lydian. The "G-ness" of the passage makes the G feel like "I" IMHO.
Sometimes, people just don't understand the difference between modes and keys, so if it's got 2 sharps, they refuse to recognize it as anything but D Major or B minor.
Best,
Steve
https://www.guitare-live.com/f(...).html
C'est un peu un "piège" puisque tu prends en exemple une pièce "atonale" (ou modale). Évidemment que l'approche modale convient (ça revient à ce qu'on disait sur le fait d'utiliser la bonne grille d'analyse)...
Ceci dit, ce n'est pas une analyse si tu ne fais que déduire des modes des notes (un logiciel pourrait le faire)... même si ici tu vises dans le mille avec une approche modale... voici par exemple une analyse (sur cette même pièce) dans le sens où je l'entends... où on commence par le plus important, soit donner le contexte général...
Citation:
Firstly, this is non-fuctional harmony, so determining function is useless in a traditional sense.
(...) this is not tonal music, so talking about "G Major" and "modulating to X" may not be as informative as you'd like it to be.
It's not "in G Major" because it's not a tonal piece. It's post-tonal. It does have a key signature, but a key signature does not tell you the key, it tells you it might be one of two possible keys in tonal music, in this case Bm or DM (if it were tonal).
At best, given the final cadence, we could say it is D Dorian, and the key signature of two sharps (either by Satie or an Editor) was chosen to reflect a "key center" of D.
But obviously, the piece uses many chords throughout that shift through various modes.
This is a Modal, post-tonal piece.
Bars 1-16 are G Lydian.
Bar 17 begins a "ii-V-i" progression leading to E Dorian (the "parallel" to G Lydian).
Bar 21 begins a shift to D Dorian (F and C Naturals throughout).
So there are some "hints" at traditionalism here Nick ("parallel" treatment of modes, ii-V-i moves, the idea that if it began in D Ionian, it could move to the "relative" D Dorian which reflects the D Major to D minor mode change of many classical works, etc.)
>
> So for the blue circled bar, I thought it could be
> a Dmajor minor7th in G, a fifth of fourth, but
> then there's an E note there.
The chord is, from bottom to top:
D - D - G - B - E - B - C - D
It depends on how you want to approach this as to what it would be called.
It is a G6 chord (G-B-D-E) or Em7 (E-G-B-D) if you consider the C note in the melody to be a passing tone (which it often is in this position), over a D bass, so:
G6/D or Em7/D (or just Em/D for some)
If I were trying to point out a "more traditional" idea of a IV6/4 (D-G-B ) to I (D-F-A) idea to further liken these moves to tonal music, than I'd call it the G6/D. If I wanted my analysis to point out the "modal" nature, I'd pick the Em7/D as it sounds "more modal" as a ii-i type "cadence". Furthermore, if I were trying to point out the ambiguous nature this piece exudes, I'd offer both as possible interpretations.
If you are to consider the C a chord tone, then it could be CM7/D (or some would call CM9/D). I don't think it sounds very "C-ish" though, so this would be my least likely choice.
A secondary issue here is that Jazzers see m7 and M7 chords as implying a Dorian and Lydian source respectively, so using G6, Em7, or CM7 all imply some sort of F# and doesn't point out the D Dorian modality as well (so again, why G6 is the least offensive choice, and has a nice tie-in with traditionalism)
If I were looking at the entire structure, calling it "some type of D chord", it would be Dm13 - though again I don't know how informative that is because it's missing the F and A (and by the way, F natural is implied from measure 21, which you didn't include here).
The most informative analysis is what he's doing - using a drone D bass, with a D dorian melody above, and harmonies from D dorian. He's also using "triad forms" above that bass, such as Em, Am, and F to create Em7/D (Dm13), Am/D (Dm9) and F/D (Dm7).
One interesting thing to note is how the harmonies, taken from that D starting point, go from "more dense" to "less dense" - m13 to m9 to m7 - the "ebb and flow" or "shrink and grow" throughout the passage. However, if you consider the melody (depending on how you consider the melodic tones as chord tones or not) that can change the overall harmonic ideas.
>
> For the red circled section I'm just clueless how
> something in C major can be related to D Major,
That's because it's not in C major.
It contains the notes A B C D E F and G.
That *could be* C major, A minor, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian or B Locrian.
It's D Dorian (at that point).
> unless he's doing a circle of fifth motion or
> something?
It's possible in modal music to have 5th related movement, but this is not one of those instances, and it's not tonal music, so talking about "circle of 5ths" is again not going to be very informative.
>
> Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.
Hope that helps,
Steve
https://www.guitare-live.com/f(...).html
Citation:
Which chord do you hear as the "home" chord.It sounds far more to me like the G chords are "I" and the D chords are "V".
When "G" sounds like "home", or the "tonic", or the "center", then the piece is "in G" - it's in G *something*.
Given a key signature of two sharps, and no chromatic alterations, that would make it G Lydian. The "G-ness" of the passage makes the G feel like "I" IMHO.
Sometimes, people just don't understand the difference between modes and keys, so if it's got 2 sharps, they refuse to recognize it as anything but D Major or B minor.
Best,
Steve
https://www.guitare-live.com/f(...).html
