Est-ce que quelqu'un s'y connaît sur le sujet "à quel niveau il faut entrer dans le 1er ampsim/pedalsim VST d'une chaîne pour en tirer le meilleur (i.e se rapprocher du résultat qu'on a quand on se branche direct dans un ampli, car ces sims ont été conçues comme ça)" ?
Utilisant souvent une TSE808, ou un Hybrit ou un TSE BOD en début de chaîne pour guitare/basse, et pensant naïvement qu'un niveau "classique" (moi je vise les -12dB en peak... Je sais que d'autres visent -6dB, et d'autres juste en-dessous du 0dB) de DI était ce qu'il fallait mais en ayant des gros doutes après lecture de threads sur le sujet, j'ai posé la question à Onqel de TSE Audio et en fait le sujet est plus complexe que je ne le pensais.
Rentrer à un niveau trop bas (et peak à -12 dB semble être trop bas pour ces sims) n'est pas terrible apparemment.
Voilà ma question et la réponse d'Onqel ci-dessous, ainsi que d'autres citations chopées sur divers threads.
Je veux bien vos retours à vous :
Ma question :
"i guess it's been asked already but i can't find a proper answer from THE MAN HIMSELF (AKA you Onqel) : what input level should we aim for for the DI track that goes into the 1st (TSE) plugin of our signal chain (considering we set the input level setting at the default position (1) on the TSE plugin) ?
-6dB peak ? just below 0dB peak (hence the input level 2 (+6dB) setting on the TSE plugins ?) ? -12 dB peak ?"
La réponse d'Onqel (TSE Audio) :
"In my personal experience a hotter DI signal gives better results: higher signal to noise ratio and a more accurate representation of the guitar signal when processed by the ADC. You should aim for -3dB to 0dB, or as loud you can go without clipping the input. You can then use the input gain control to lower or raise the voltage signal (the ampsim interprets the digital signal as a voltage value internally). It's hard to say exactly what input gain you should use to replicate the original guitar output signal because that depends on your pickups etc. E.g. EMG81 has the following specs: Average/Max Output Voltage: 1.25/1.75... in other words if you keep the input gain between 1.25 and 1.75 (+2/+5dB) you are theoretically within the specs of those pickups. Personally I find it better to just use those (theoretical) values as a reference and adjust the input gain to the point I think the response of the sim feels best. - John"
CITATIONS DIVERSES :
cf :
http://www.guitarampmodeling.c(...)rt=25
"The automatic input volume setting is the worst feature you can use on an amp simulator. The fact that some commercial simulators have it really bugs me. It just fools the user, eventually hiding soundcard setting mistakes.
Let me explain it a bit more, once again...
First reason: let's say the user has set his soundcard input extremely low, so that it peaks at -24db. This is a really bad setting, because he is not using the AD converter full headroom, causing less accurate digital conversion and decreasing the signal to noise ratio (aka more noise).
Apart from that, the unexperienced user then says "Ok, now I'll let the software auto-adjust my input settings", clicks on the magic button, the signal gets boosted a lot, and the result is "WOW! Now it really sounds cool! More gain!".
This is just plain WRONG, because the user has been fooled and thinks that everything in his chain is fine, but he still has bad digital conversion and more noise.
Second reason: let's say the user has set his soundcard input extremely high, so that it clips. He don't notice it, because he is unexperienced or his soundcard don't have a clipping indicator.
"Ok, now I'll let the software auto-adjust my input settings", clicks on the magic button, the signal gets lowered a lot and it seems that is not clipping anymore.
Plain WRONG. The input signal is already clipped, and that can't be recovered. Once again the user has been fooled and thinks that everything in his chain is fine, but he has a clipped input signal, which means less dynamic and more digital distortion (which is a bad type of distortion!)
Third reason: the user is more experienced and has setted the soundcard preamp so that it uses the full converter headroom, getting max conversion quality and max signal to noise ratio. But he didn't consider that he has an high output pickup, like an EMG 81.
"Ok, now I'll let the software auto-adjust my input settings", clicks on the magic button, the signal this time gets eventually lowered a bit to get into the "safe" area.
Again, this is plain WRONG. The volume adjuster is just setting the input level so that it can't go over 1V. Why? Clipping? No, because once the signal has been converted to digital, clipping may happen only in the soundcard output (digital to analog converter), not at the input of an amp sim. If an amp sim is clipping the input signal is a SHITTY amp sim. A good amp sim, like the one we're discussing here, can process even a 40V input signal, and a 40V input signal is NOT getting digitally clipped! It is getting saturated by the tube algorithm like it would in the real world. Only if the output volume of your DAW is higher than 1.0 (or lower than -1.0) you get clipping (or if a plugin has a certain max input/output threshold for whatever reason, but that's another thing).
Fourth reason: same condition as the second one. If you have an high output pickup, after the AD conversion you'll still have an input signal with a max excursion of 2Vpp (from -1 to 1, this is valid for every host). An EMG 81 can have up to 3Vpp (or even more), this means that the input volume adjuster is supposed to BOOST the signal, not lower it! If it lowers it, the amp-sim will not react correctly to that pickup, because the input it sees is lower than the real one.
Since an automatic volume adjuster is obviously not able to recognize a pickup, the only thing it can do is lower the max input even when it should boost it.
Plain WRONG once again.
Correct way to set up the input volume:
1) Set up your soundcard at best! Try to get the max preamp volume until you see the soundcard clipping indicator (red led) light on. If it lights on, lower the preamp a little bit and check again. Do this until the led do not light on anymore. Remember: pick STRONG! You need to get the maximum output out of your pickup.
2) When available, read the datasheet of your pickups and check the maximum output rating. If it says 3Vpp, like EMGs, means that your input should be multiplied by 1.5, which, in decibels, mean:
20*log(1.5) = 3,52 so a 3,52 db boost.
Remember that this applies only to the first plugin on your chain. For example, if you have LeCto as your first plugin, set its input level to 3.5db (halfway to the right clockwise, I think). If you have TSE 808 in front of LeCto, you have to boost the TSE 808 input by 3.5db and left the LeCto input level to flat (no boost, no cut).
Hope its clear once for all, I wrote this at least 3 times before
Do not use the input level automatic adjusters, they can only ruin your tone.
Set up your soundcard and your plugins correctly, instead."
"they have ticks as reference...
The max excursion should boost 6db, so a 2x multiplier.
Let's say you want 1.5 multiplier (active EMG), just set the pot at the 3rd tick on the right on LeCto, on the TSE just set the input so that is 3/4 full."
"Incresing the input will not give you the same result as increasing the gain (drive) because in the model the gain pot is in parallel with a capacitor which means that more gain = more bass too. By opposition, the input knob acts only on the signal level and is frequency independent."
"I think active Duncans should be in the same range of EMGs, so, like I said above, 3rd tick clockwise for the LeCto, and 3/4 for the TSE 808.
Remember that if you have the TSE in front of LeCto, you should only set the TSE input, the LeCto input should be at the default value!"
"Did you set your interface preamp to an appropriate gain level? The peaks should generally be around -6dbfs, that's when you dig into the strings. Alu wrote a very informative document about the input knob on amp sims, you'll find it bundled with his plugins if you download one."
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EDIT : quelques questions/pistes :
-si on considère que le VST ampsim/pedalsim en tout début de chaîne est comme le vrai amp/pédale, à quel niveau d'entrée il faut enregistrer pour que ces VST reçoivent le même niveau (après conversion A/N en passant par le preamp de la carte son) que leurs homologues réels lors qu'on se branche en direct dessus ?
Onqel me parle de niveau de sortie/voltage de mes micros et cie... Je ne pensais pas qu'il fallait aller aussi loin dans les considérations (mais ça a du sens), sachant que d'habitude on se dit plutôt "j'enregistre une piste DI à un niveau correct (moi j'ai choisi -12dB en peak, chacun a son truc)" sans se préoccuper de ce qui suit derrière dans la chaîne, et on ajuste les niveaux ensuite si besoin.
Vous faites comment vous ?
Là maintenant je suis tenté d'enregistrer mes DI assez "hot" (proche du 0dB) et de rentrer dans le plug comme ça du coup.
Après rien n'interdit de baisser ensuite le niveau (via fader ou input sensitivity par exemple) de la DI si c'est un niveau trop fort pour le 1er élément de la chaîne.
Mais ce qui m'embête c'est qu'il y avait cette règle d'enregistrer les DI à un certain niveau, et là pour ces plugins on réalise qu'il faut enregistrer plus fort (ou en tout cas rentrer plus fort dedans).
Question : est-ce qu'enregistrer à -12dB en peak puis monter le volume d'entrée au fader dans mon DAW (ou l'input sensitivity du plugin) pour approcher les 0DB pour en entrée dans mon plugin ça le fait ?
En d'autres termes : est-ce ça le fait selon vous de continuer à enregistrer à un niveau conservateur (genre -12 dB en peak) puis d'ajuster ensuite le niveau pour attaquer le plugin au bon niveau, ou est-ce que le résultat sera forcément largement moins bon (cf rapport signal bruit par exemple) que d'enregistrer direct assez chaud pour avoir direct le bon niveau pour rentrer dans le plugin ?
EDIT 2 : j'aimerais pouvoir me simplifier la vie avec une règle générale, simple et facilement applicable, et pas un truc du style "alors là je joue avec telle guitare qui a tel micro donc je dois faire des calculs pour savoir à quel niveau je dois attaquer mon plugin pour cette guitare"
Ch. : Digitech Drop d'occasion
