Comment apprendre à Jammer ?

Nadja_
  • Nadja_
  • Special Cool utilisateur
  • #1
  • Publié par
    Nadja_
    le 22 Juil 2012, 16:14
La question ne paie pas de mine hein ^^ ?

Bon, petite présentation : J'ai 21 ans, sors de classe préparatoire (donc, pas eu le temps de jouer en groupe pendant 3 ans) 5 ans de guitare électrique derrière moi, appris tout seul, sans notion musicale, et je suis (en toute humilité, puisqu'il faut parler sérieusement), fan de hard rock 80's (Donc : Def Leppard, Judas priest, Iron Maiden...) le parfait petit branleur soliste de base. C'est à dire que je suis capable de jouer des solos très rapides, très beaux, avec beaucoup de disto et de delay et de reverb', qui impressionnent les novices et néophytes. Mais demande moi d'improviser sur une ligne de basse, sur un plan rythmique, et je ne sais pas quoi faire. Je reste là, un peu bêbête, je place quelques accords, mais ça ne va pas plus loin.

Bien entendu, je me doute bien que des mecs comme moi, il y en a des tas.

Maintenant, c'est frustrant. Parce que ce que j'aimerais, c'est clairement jouer avec plusieurs personnes, et c'est compréhensible, parce que l'intérêt d'un instrument est là (selon moi, mdr).
Alors, j'imagine bien que vous allez me conseiller de tout simplement trouver des amis qui jouent de la musique et de me débrouiller avec eux. Ca, c'est déjà prévu. Mais chez moi, tout seul, comment je fais ? Dois-je apprendre des gammes, et des gammes et encore des gammes ? Apprendre des accords ? Je sais qu'Yngwie Malmsteen, à mon âge, se posait devant une radio et improvisait sur des morceaux qui passaient (???). Après, n'est pas Yngwie qui veut...

Le problème n'est pas la masse de travail à fournir : j'ai la motivation et le temps nécessaire pour bosser 1h voir 2h par jour. Ce que je vous demande (humblement ^^) ce sont juste des conseils, des exercices, pour pouvoir jouer avec des gens, et profiter à fond de l'instrument !

Merci bcp !
oui.
Redbox
  • Redbox
  • Vintage Cool utilisateur
    Cet utilisateur est un musicien professionnel
  • #2
  • Publié par
    Redbox
    le 22 Juil 2012, 16:31
Nadja_ a écrit :
La question ne paie pas de mine hein ^^ ?

Bon, petite présentation : J'ai 21 ans (...) Je sais qu'Yngwie Malmsteen, à mon âge, se posait devant une radio et improvisait sur des morceaux qui passaient (???). Après, n'est pas Yngwie qui veut...



A 21 ans Yngwie remplissait déjà les salles sur son nom depuis longtemps

Quelques cours pour commencer avec un prof qui va t'expliquer les notions de bases essentielles pour jouer en groupe. Travaille ton placement et ton oreille en relevant des morceaux et en jouant et improvisant sur des playbacks (tu en trouveras partout sur le net).

Et bien sur en premier, va jouer avec tes potes musiciens !!
Infos, sons, images
http://www.yvan-guillevic.com
dish
  • dish
  • Custom Total utilisateur
  • #3
  • Publié par
    dish
    le 22 Juil 2012, 16:55
C est en jammant qu on devient jammeur....pas de meilleur conseil pour moi dsl...lol
Plus serieusement, au debut tu risques de te sentir bete et pas tres creatif, puis au fil des jams et des rencontres, ça ira beaucoup mieux. Faut juste un peu(pas trop) de temps.
Mon Groupe PapaRooster:
https://www.facebook.com/paparooster13
lokrian
  • lokrian
  • Vintage Total utilisateur
  • #4
  • Publié par
    lokrian
    le 22 Juil 2012, 17:05
généralement sur des jam, rien n'est vraiment totalement "improvisé".

On prépare toujours une base ( une rythmique blues et nimporte qui peut improviser sur une penta mineure ). ça peut être un bon riff, ou une reprise qu'on personnalise.

Pour le reste généralement , ce que tu vas jouer est en bonne partie des "plans" que tu as élaboré en jouant chez toi ou en bossant autre chose.
Après il y a une part de véritable impro aussi hein
.:: LA BRADERIE DE LOKRIAN !! ::.
https://www.guitariste.com/for(...).html

CHERCHE ZIKOS dans le 59 pour jouer du bon gros Rock"n"Roll / hard /glam ! https://www.guitariste.com/for(...)81090
xelalex35
tu dois bien avoir des scènes ouvertes du coté de chez toi non???

tu te pointe avec ta gratte et gooo démerde yourself!

comme dit lokrian, une impro s'appuie sur une base connue.

typiquement, tu te pointe à un boeuf, si quelqu'un lance une grille de blues en 12 mesures classique, tout le monde est censé se démerder.

donc tu gratouille un peu sur la tonalité et puis un petit phrasé par ci par la, et hop tu reprends ta rythmique en laissant la place à un autre.

idem avec un morceau connu qui a une structure simple (whole lotta love / black night....) tu prends le riff le base, et zou!!!

après, ca peut aussi être une grille improvisée également. tu regarde ce que joue la pianiste / bassiste / autre gratteux. tu chope la structure. et tu joue la rythmique.

pas la peine d'essayer de soloter si tu n'a pas la structure ni le riff en tête.

et la toujours pareil. tu prends la rythmique et quand vient ton tour, tu place quelques phrasés qui collent avec l'esprit du boeuf en question, et tu reviens à ta place.


la première qualité à avoir quand on boeuf, c'est l'écoute!!
si le batteur change son pattern, ou le bassiste qui part sur un groove un peu différent, c'est une invitation à partir dans un autre style. si toi tu reste butté sur ton riff parce que tu le trouve trop bien, tu plante tout!!
donc il y a une rythmique sur laquelle on se retrouve tous, et quand un part sur quelque chose de différent, on s'adapte et on évolue!!
heureux sont les fêlés, ils laissent passer la lumière eux!

Débutant à la basse, guitariste ou pas, c'est ici:
https://www.guitariste.com/for(...).html

A VENDRE :
Tranche de console Symetrix :
https://www.guitariste.com/for(...)42568
Nadja_
  • Nadja_
  • Special Cool utilisateur
  • #6
  • Publié par
    Nadja_
    le 22 Juil 2012, 20:07
Bon et bien merci de vos réponses ^^

Alors, to put it in a nutshell :

-Prendre quelques cours pour en parler avec un pro, qui saura effectivement me conseiller par rapport à mon niveau. Je pense que c'est ce que je vais d'abord faire.
-Improviser sur des playbacks
-bosser à fond ma rythmique, go métronome j'imagine.
-Squatter les scènes ouvertes. Le problème, c'est que j'ai peur de ne pas sentir assez bon...Donc, j'attendrai un peu avant de m'y rendre.
oui.
  • #7
  • Publié par
    Invité
    le 22 Juil 2012, 23:55
Ouais, et un looper basique mais ça servira beaucoup à bien commencer.
Split38
  • #8
  • Publié par
    Split38
    le 22 Juil 2012, 23:57
Nadja_ a écrit :
go métronome j'imagine


Essentiel. C'est magique parce qu'après avoir travaillé pendant un moment au métronome, tu as un déclic et tu chopes direct les temps.

Nadja_ a écrit :
Le problème, c'est que j'ai peur de ne pas sentir assez bon...


Hellacopters rules
Rock'n'roll is the only way !
Doc Loco
Effectivement, jammer s'apprend en jammant. Donc déjà en ayant passé le cap psychologique de "mais je vais être ridicule".

Un conseil: le défaut n°1 des débutants en jam, c'est de ne pas écouter les autres. Donc, quand tu commences une jam, laisse passer quelques mesures où tu écoutes les autres. S'il y'a un chanteur, ne joue pas de solo par-dessus, fais juste une rythmique simple et aérée! Contente-toi d'abord de petites interventions brèves pour trouver tes marques et "sentir" les autres musiciens. Ne cherche pas à foutre des notes partout, c'est radical pour te faire mal voir (sauf si tu es un dieu ... ).
In rod we truss.

"Quelle opulence" - themidnighter

"It's sink or swim - shut up!"
Skeudenner
Doc Loco a écrit :
(sauf si tu es un dieu ... ).


Et encore, ça aussi c'est mal vu haha!

"The answer is none. None more black."

Titties 'N Beer
stach stach
Nadja_ a écrit :
Bon et bien merci de vos réponses ^^

Alors, to put it in a nutshell :

-Prendre quelques cours pour en parler avec un pro, qui saura effectivement me conseiller par rapport à mon niveau. Je pense que c'est ce que je vais d'abord faire.
-Improviser sur des playbacks
-bosser à fond ma rythmique, go métronome j'imagine.
-Squatter les scènes ouvertes. Le problème, c'est que j'ai peur de ne pas (me) sentir assez bon...Donc, j'attendrai un peu avant de m'y rendre.


mon conseil : vas y quand même ...
si j'avais attendu de me sentir assez bon pour jouer... bah j'aurais jamais joué
bullfrog
choisis bien ta jam, j'en connais des très ouvertes et des très fermées

sinon les règles indispensables
Special rules for Guitar players.
Rule 1. Turn the volume on the guitar down.
Rule 2. Turn the volume on the amp down.
Rule 3. Turn the volume on your effects down. (donc pas de disto et cie)
Rule 4. Play softly.

les règles plus générales:
Rules of the Jam
Rule 1. Jams are fun. They are not practice. They are not to entertain anyone except the participants. Make it fun. If you have to, work hard to make it fun. If it isn't fun, don't do it.
Rule 2. Jams are the time to make mistakes. In a Jam you can experiment, screw up, fall down, drop your axe and otherwise make a fool of yourself. The flip side of this is that you have to be tolerant of others who are screwing up. In any case good manners should be as important here as in any social situation.
Rule 3. Jams are for beginners as well as experts. Although you can make some rules as to minimum competence, these should be rules like: Must know how to play in different keys. Must know the changes. If you are an expert, teach the beginners, don't condemn them. If you are a beginner, it may be better not to play anything if you are not sure of the key or the changes.
Rule 4. Everyone gets a chance to solo - if not in every song then in every set for at least one verse. If a solo is good or needs a second time around then it should get a second verse. A great solo deserves a third shot, but a great solo leads to something and should end of its own accord by the third verse. Even the drummers and the Bass player need to solo from time to time. (Well, maybe not the Bass player.)
Rule 5. Everyone plays. If there are lots of people, then maybe not all at the same time. Too many harp players sounds like bagpipes. Too many guitar players sounds like hell. A good jam has lots of participants, sometimes over a dozen people playing at the same time. The object is to play, not to sound good. Remember rule 1.
Rule 6. Don't solo unless its your time to solo. It's harder to play a good rhythm line along with the other people not soloing than to solo. Playing rhythm requires coordination and a good understanding of the music. Harmonica players have the hardest time playing rhythm, but harmonica rhythm sounds great.
Rule 7. Don't "Dixieland". Don't add embellishments and ornamentation to the song needlessly (unless it is a Dixieland song, and even then there are rules.)
Rule 8. Don't step on someone else's solo. Lay back and let another wail, you're time will come. There's nothing worse than trying to sing or play and have someone else playing a solo against you.
Rule 9. Learn the music. If its Blues, get all of the classic, Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Jimmy Reed, etc. Be familiar with the literature. Know where the stops are.
Rule 10. If you are not soloing, turn down. Guitarists should use a stomp box with a preamp. Others use a volume control. Don't play loud. In jams there are usually more than a few people. The combined loudness will make total volume levels so high that the softer instruments and players will not be heard.
Rule 11. Call the song. If you are going decide which song to play next, then describe it. Make sure everyone knows the changes and the keys. Example: "Slow shuffle blues in E, fast to the 4, stays in the 1 in the guitar solo. The singer will signal the stops in the intro."
Rule 12. If you are shy, don't sit in the corner strumming your git, sadly. Join in and play. The jam is a chance for people to have a good time being less than perfect. Participate! Encourage others to participate. Some people want to be coaxed. Coax them.
Rule 13. Applaud. Be happy. Reward positive behavior. The jam isn't about you, it's about US. Make everyone feel they've done a good job. Even the worst player has to be better in the last song than he was in the one before. Everyone can get better, even if getting better means that he hit 2 notes right out of 100 instead of 1 note right.
Rule 14. Control your alcohol and drug use. Don't get so drunk or high that it hurts your playing or upsets other people. It's hard to judge just how "fud-up" you are, even when it is perfectly obvious to everyone else. You really don't play better with a buzz, you just sound better to yourself. If you are nervous about playing, a drink might loosen you up a little, but control yourself. Drugs, especially, make some people uncomfortable. I personally don't like it when there are drugs around. I don't appreciate people who bring drugs to a jam. It's bad manners to assume that everyone at the jam is 'cool' enough think that drugs are OK. They are against the law and can get everyone in the room in trouble if you are busted. Don't light up that doobie until your host is aware and approves. Put it out if anyone complains.
Rule 15. Mix up the musical styles. Don't play slow shuffles in E all night. Play some fast boogies and a few rock classics. If someone is into SRV, let him play a few. If someone else is into Rev. Gary Davis, let him lead a few. The beauty of Blues and Jazz and Rock is the variety. Don't play just one kind of song. But - see next rule.
Rule 16. Play easy songs. Songs with complicated changes and key changes make it hard on the beginners. Play simple songs that everyone knows. This isn't work. Don't make it hard.
Rule 17. If you declare a song, lead it. You become the Jam leader. You should point to the next soloist and give them plenty of time to lead into the solo. Point to them in the turn-around. You have to yell "Stop" at the stops so everyone can stop. You have to make the winding motion with your finger straight up when you are winding up the song. You have to try and quiet down the loud players and buck up the shy players.
Rule 18. Watch the leader. He'll tell when to solo, when to stop, when to wind it up and when you are too loud.
Rule 19. Let the drummer call the beat. He'll use his sticks and count off the beat. Don't do this yourself. The Drummer and the Bass players are the backbone of the music. Let them lead you. If you are a drummer, drive the song. Don't let the guitar players do your job. They will let the beat wander all over the place. You have to keep it steady. Don't let anyone speed you up. If you are a Bass Player, please keep the drummer straight.
Rule 20. Take a break. Go outside and smoke a cig. Talk to the pretty girl in the corner. Let someone else be the star for a set. The Jam should take a break every three songs to let someone else a shot at stardom..
Rule 21: Bring your own axe. Don't borrow a guitar or (yuck) someone's harmonica. If you are a singer or harp player, bring your own Mic and plug it into the PA yourself. If you are a guitar player, bring your own amp. Don't ask to plug in with someone else. Drummers should bring their own sticks, snares and rides. Guitar players should bring extra strings and batteries. Drummers should bring extra sticks. Harp players, bring more than one harp - don't make the band play in G all night.
Rule 22. Respect your host. If the Jam is in a private home, call the host to find out if you are actually invited. Bring food, drink or a gift. Thank your host when you leave. Don't use the telephone. Don't raid the fridge. Make the host happy that they had a jam and that you came along. If the Jam is in a bar, tip the waitresses, buy your drinks at the bar, don't sneak out to the convenience store on the corner. Don't throw up in the bathroom. Don't start fights. Listen to the host and don't argue with him.
Rule 23. Go home. Don't stay until you are the last idiot playing. The host has to sleep eventually. You are in someone else's home or place of business. Set a time to leave, midnight, 1 AM, or even later, but don't make the host chase you out.
Rule 24. If you have been jamming at someone's house for a while, return the favor and host a Jam at your place, if you can. If you can't, host a blues picnic at the lake where you supply the keg, or plan a blues outing to a club where you offer to be designated driver.
Rule 25. Practice at home. Bring a new riff or song or idea to the Jam each week. Make each jam better than the last. Don't put you axe in the case after the jam and leave it there until the next jam. Get better!
Rule 26. Make a new rule. Go to a jam and figure out how it could be improved and tell me about it. I'll add the rule here.
Thank heavens the Ampeg doesn't sound like a Deluxe Reverb!
lico
  • lico
  • Custom Méga utilisateur
  • #13
  • Publié par
    lico
    le 23 Juil 2012, 10:28
Comme déjà dit, l'essentiel c'est l'écoute pour identifier quelques trucs:

- sur quoi jamme t-on? Une grille ou un seul voire 2 ou accords?
- dans quelle tonalité?
- sur quel groove?
Essaie de démarrer par des séquences de peu de notes (1 à 3/4), mais bien placée rythmiquement.
Essaie de ne pas être hors sujet en identifiant l'ambiance, l'esprit que les autres musiciens ont mis en place.

Et bien sûr, pas de solos, si tu n'as pas compris la rythmique.
OSEF
—————————————————————————————————-
« les gens comme vous » :phrase prononcée par CasseOreille le 11/01/2019, pour désigner ceux qui ne pensent pas comme lui.
M.Twirly
bullfrog a écrit :
choisis bien ta jam, j'en connais des très ouvertes et des très fermées

sinon les règles indispensables
Special rules for Guitar players.
Rule 1. Turn the volume on the guitar down.
Rule 2. Turn the volume on the amp down.
Rule 3. Turn the volume on your effects down. (donc pas de disto et cie)
Rule 4. Play softly.

les règles plus générales:
Rules of the Jam
Rule 1. Jams are fun. They are not practice. They are not to entertain anyone except the participants. Make it fun. If you have to, work hard to make it fun. If it isn't fun, don't do it.
Rule 2. Jams are the time to make mistakes. In a Jam you can experiment, screw up, fall down, drop your axe and otherwise make a fool of yourself. The flip side of this is that you have to be tolerant of others who are screwing up. In any case good manners should be as important here as in any social situation.
Rule 3. Jams are for beginners as well as experts. Although you can make some rules as to minimum competence, these should be rules like: Must know how to play in different keys. Must know the changes. If you are an expert, teach the beginners, don't condemn them. If you are a beginner, it may be better not to play anything if you are not sure of the key or the changes.
Rule 4. Everyone gets a chance to solo - if not in every song then in every set for at least one verse. If a solo is good or needs a second time around then it should get a second verse. A great solo deserves a third shot, but a great solo leads to something and should end of its own accord by the third verse. Even the drummers and the Bass player need to solo from time to time. (Well, maybe not the Bass player.)
Rule 5. Everyone plays. If there are lots of people, then maybe not all at the same time. Too many harp players sounds like bagpipes. Too many guitar players sounds like hell. A good jam has lots of participants, sometimes over a dozen people playing at the same time. The object is to play, not to sound good. Remember rule 1.
Rule 6. Don't solo unless its your time to solo. It's harder to play a good rhythm line along with the other people not soloing than to solo. Playing rhythm requires coordination and a good understanding of the music. Harmonica players have the hardest time playing rhythm, but harmonica rhythm sounds great.
Rule 7. Don't "Dixieland". Don't add embellishments and ornamentation to the song needlessly (unless it is a Dixieland song, and even then there are rules.)
Rule 8. Don't step on someone else's solo. Lay back and let another wail, you're time will come. There's nothing worse than trying to sing or play and have someone else playing a solo against you.
Rule 9. Learn the music. If its Blues, get all of the classic, Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Jimmy Reed, etc. Be familiar with the literature. Know where the stops are.
Rule 10. If you are not soloing, turn down. Guitarists should use a stomp box with a preamp. Others use a volume control. Don't play loud. In jams there are usually more than a few people. The combined loudness will make total volume levels so high that the softer instruments and players will not be heard.
Rule 11. Call the song. If you are going decide which song to play next, then describe it. Make sure everyone knows the changes and the keys. Example: "Slow shuffle blues in E, fast to the 4, stays in the 1 in the guitar solo. The singer will signal the stops in the intro."
Rule 12. If you are shy, don't sit in the corner strumming your git, sadly. Join in and play. The jam is a chance for people to have a good time being less than perfect. Participate! Encourage others to participate. Some people want to be coaxed. Coax them.
Rule 13. Applaud. Be happy. Reward positive behavior. The jam isn't about you, it's about US. Make everyone feel they've done a good job. Even the worst player has to be better in the last song than he was in the one before. Everyone can get better, even if getting better means that he hit 2 notes right out of 100 instead of 1 note right.
Rule 14. Control your alcohol and drug use. Don't get so drunk or high that it hurts your playing or upsets other people. It's hard to judge just how "fud-up" you are, even when it is perfectly obvious to everyone else. You really don't play better with a buzz, you just sound better to yourself. If you are nervous about playing, a drink might loosen you up a little, but control yourself. Drugs, especially, make some people uncomfortable. I personally don't like it when there are drugs around. I don't appreciate people who bring drugs to a jam. It's bad manners to assume that everyone at the jam is 'cool' enough think that drugs are OK. They are against the law and can get everyone in the room in trouble if you are busted. Don't light up that doobie until your host is aware and approves. Put it out if anyone complains.
Rule 15. Mix up the musical styles. Don't play slow shuffles in E all night. Play some fast boogies and a few rock classics. If someone is into SRV, let him play a few. If someone else is into Rev. Gary Davis, let him lead a few. The beauty of Blues and Jazz and Rock is the variety. Don't play just one kind of song. But - see next rule.
Rule 16. Play easy songs. Songs with complicated changes and key changes make it hard on the beginners. Play simple songs that everyone knows. This isn't work. Don't make it hard.
Rule 17. If you declare a song, lead it. You become the Jam leader. You should point to the next soloist and give them plenty of time to lead into the solo. Point to them in the turn-around. You have to yell "Stop" at the stops so everyone can stop. You have to make the winding motion with your finger straight up when you are winding up the song. You have to try and quiet down the loud players and buck up the shy players.
Rule 18. Watch the leader. He'll tell when to solo, when to stop, when to wind it up and when you are too loud.
Rule 19. Let the drummer call the beat. He'll use his sticks and count off the beat. Don't do this yourself. The Drummer and the Bass players are the backbone of the music. Let them lead you. If you are a drummer, drive the song. Don't let the guitar players do your job. They will let the beat wander all over the place. You have to keep it steady. Don't let anyone speed you up. If you are a Bass Player, please keep the drummer straight.
Rule 20. Take a break. Go outside and smoke a cig. Talk to the pretty girl in the corner. Let someone else be the star for a set. The Jam should take a break every three songs to let someone else a shot at stardom..
Rule 21: Bring your own axe. Don't borrow a guitar or (yuck) someone's harmonica. If you are a singer or harp player, bring your own Mic and plug it into the PA yourself. If you are a guitar player, bring your own amp. Don't ask to plug in with someone else. Drummers should bring their own sticks, snares and rides. Guitar players should bring extra strings and batteries. Drummers should bring extra sticks. Harp players, bring more than one harp - don't make the band play in G all night.
Rule 22. Respect your host. If the Jam is in a private home, call the host to find out if you are actually invited. Bring food, drink or a gift. Thank your host when you leave. Don't use the telephone. Don't raid the fridge. Make the host happy that they had a jam and that you came along. If the Jam is in a bar, tip the waitresses, buy your drinks at the bar, don't sneak out to the convenience store on the corner. Don't throw up in the bathroom. Don't start fights. Listen to the host and don't argue with him.
Rule 23. Go home. Don't stay until you are the last idiot playing. The host has to sleep eventually. You are in someone else's home or place of business. Set a time to leave, midnight, 1 AM, or even later, but don't make the host chase you out.
Rule 24. If you have been jamming at someone's house for a while, return the favor and host a Jam at your place, if you can. If you can't, host a blues picnic at the lake where you supply the keg, or plan a blues outing to a club where you offer to be designated driver.
Rule 25. Practice at home. Bring a new riff or song or idea to the Jam each week. Make each jam better than the last. Don't put you axe in the case after the jam and leave it there until the next jam. Get better!
Rule 26. Make a new rule. Go to a jam and figure out how it could be improved and tell me about it. I'll add the rule here.


T'aurais pu faire un effort pour détailler quand même...
bullfrog
oui
Thank heavens the Ampeg doesn't sound like a Deluxe Reverb!

En ce moment sur bla bla et guitare...